Episode Transcript
[00:00:00]
Jill Brook: Hello, Mast Cell Patients and beautiful people who care about Mast Cell Patients. I'm Jill Brook, and this is Mast Cell Matters, where we go deep on all things related to Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, or MCAS, with the help of our wonderful, amazing guest host, Dr. Tania Dempsey. She is the Mast Cell universe expert, in my mind.
She's a physician and researcher extraordinaire, expert on Mast Cell Disease and other sorts of immune dysfunction. And Dr. Dempsey, thank you so much for hosting today. Who did you bring with you?
Dr. Tania Dempsey: Oh, I am, I am really excited to have my, my go to person in the world of mold, Michael Rubino. He is the CEO of Change the Air Foundation, which we all need to hear about, and he is the ultimate expert in mold remediation. I've known Michael for a number of years, and he just is so well versed in [00:01:00] this topic, and I think this is something that all our listeners really need to hear about. So let's dive in.
Jill Brook: Hooray, thank you. And can I give a little bit of context just to Michael? That in Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, all of us patients have our immune systems going crazy. And the thing that we're taught, the number one rule of MCAS is if you can, try to identify and then avoid your triggers. And mold is such a trigger for most of us, but
avoiding it is so hard and you get all this different information and then it's a nightmare and so we're really grateful to have you be an authority on how to avoid it and get rid of it.
Michael Rubino: Totally. Thank you so much for having me. And of course, you know, I, I don't know as much about MCAS as you guys, of course, but I have dipped my toe in the water of understanding, you know, how it all, how it affects, especially with mold exposure and how that kind of creates this massive issue of triggers.
Right. And so, been doing this for a long [00:02:00] time and, and really excited to kind of dive in today.
Dr. Tania Dempsey: Great. Great. Well, so again, thank you for being here. So why don't we why don't we talk a little bit about your background and how you've come to this place where you are now as you know, basically co founder of Change the Air Foundation.
Michael Rubino: Yeah. So the, really the story starts with me, you know, coming home after college and working for my dad. My dad was a restoration contractor since I'm about five years old. And you know, Hurricane Sandy hits the Northeast and I start seeing a pattern of people getting sick. And it, I was about 20 something at the time.
And so in my twenties, you know, for the first time seeing people getting sick in their own homes. A light bulb goes off, like, cause, cause for me, no one talked about that stuff in school, or anything like that. When I went to the doctor, no one's ever asked me, you know, Do I have any symptoms? Because I'm staying in a moldy building or something like that.
As a matter of fact, I grew up with asthma as a kid. And actually ditched [00:03:00] asthma by the time I was eight years old. When I moved from New York in like a moldy apartment building to a single family home in New Jersey. And so, you know, as I started putting all this together and really started noticing this pattern of people getting sick, I decided, well, why is that happening?
And I started doing a lot of research. And one of the things that I really found profound at the time was, you know, with mold, for example, obviously water damage takes shape first, right? Water comes into the building, it allows this ability for mold to grow. And you know, going back to I think the standards at the time were the 2006 IICRC S 520 standards.
They've evolved a lot over the years and, and, and I love that organization. It's phenomenal in terms of certifications and standardizations. But at that time, you know, no one was talking about mycotoxins. It was something that I found in my research. No one was really talking about how mold creates spores and particles that fragment across the house.
[00:04:00] Because really it just, the whole protocol was set up a containment and just remove that wall. And so, as I started to realize, well we have living organisms that create particles, that create toxins. Those distribute across the house, especially with modern mechanical systems, right? HVAC systems. Why, why aren't we talking about how do you fully assess and fully handle the situation?
And furthermore, you know, at this point in time, I'm getting a lot of calls from people that already had their house supposedly remediated directly after the storm, but yet still weren't feeling well. And so, it really led to you know, the past 10 years on this massive research product of trying to figure out how do I solve that problem, you know, home by home.
And more, more often as I started to figure that out, how do I tell that story to help benefit others, which is where this, this book came out of that I released in 2020. And then after that, and if you, if you had the privilege of reading that book [00:05:00] I talked about this foundation, but when it was just an idea fast forward to 2024, the foundation has been in existence for two years partnered up with Brandon Chappo, Kendra Seymour who are also co founders of the, of the foundation.
And we've really put together something absolutely special to help educate people completely for free to be able to start to put together research programs, that will, that we'll be funding, and of course, that requires support to do so. And policy advocacy work, which you know, we passed our first bill in Illinois just a couple weeks ago.
Which, you know, is really monumental. But, you know, it's, it's just getting started. And that's, that's what's really exciting.
Dr. Tania Dempsey: So tell us about the, about the legislation.
Michael Rubino: So, you know, the story begins with Brandon Chappell really he gets sick in Ohio. And Brandon actually advocates and contacts his legislators, shares his story about how he got sick, he got some media attention around [00:06:00] it and they created the I think it was called the Healthy Indoor Air Act of Ohio, and that bill did not pass.
But that, that whole story made it to my desk and I said, you know, I got to reach out to this guy because this is the way we fix things, right? We fix things through legislation. You know, people, unfortunately, they have to get sick to be aware of this thing and that, that's just kind of where we're at, at the current juncture.
We actually need to, to prevent people from getting sick in the first place. And to go, to fill that gap, we actually need the government's assistance in better legislation, better protections for people in, in just in communities. And I reached out to Brandon Chappo and that very, that, that very first time I saw his whole story.
And I was like, look, I have this idea, I want to create this foundation, and I don't think the foundation can be successful without someone like you you know, really taking what you've learned from the [00:07:00] Ohio bill, whether it passed or not, and starting to duplicate that process and help us really make traction across the 50 states, and of course, federally too.
So we, we did have a federal bill that was proposed last year. The Healthy at Home Act of 2023. And that bill actually was sponsored out of Connecticut, but unfortunately it just didn't pass. And one thing is challenging, you know, it's very timely. We just had a debate last night, right? Politics is very difficult to navigate.
And you've got two different ideologies that, you know, are constantly combating one another, but our goal is to figure out, you know, to shuffle through the noise and figure out how do we make, how do we reach common ground. Because at the end of the day, it, it doesn't matter what you believe in, this is impacting everyone, right?
Jill Brook: Well, I was just wondering how a bill can be used to make the air healthier. Is it something about like what the builders have to do or how, how does the bill
address [00:08:00] it?
Michael Rubino: So, I mean, many different ways that bill addresses this. So first off, as you mentioned, you know, builders, right? So it probably will not surprise you, but no builder in America is educated on actually building homes with a mold perspective in mind. It's just not part of the curriculum. It's not part of the trade.
There's no requirement for any builder to be certified in mold, have any understanding of mold or any education. To me, I have a fundamental issue with that. And the reason being is because the builder is building a home and they don't build it properly. Because they're not required to build it any sort of way other than energy codes and building codes.
Well, guess what? As water intrudes in that building process, we're going to have an issue with mold and bacteria growing in those walls. I mean, I am sure that from the three of us, we have heard of at least one person that we can rattle off our head that had a brand new house that had mold in it, right?
And so, how does something like that exist [00:09:00] if not for the way in which we're building homes, which is you may have heard of a term called dried in, for example. Dried in, what it, what, what, what builders think it means, they think it means that they've got some waterproofing on the roof, and they've got some waterproofing on the exterior, maybe these, there's even some windows installed.
But what it actually means is, like it sounds, dried in. The structure is dry. And the house is supposed to be literally dried before you start bringing in something like insulation and drywall. Well, when's the last time anyone has seen a dehumidifier on a construction site? I mean, honestly, think about it.
It just doesn't happen, right? And so we all understand, we all have, we have these terms, we all understand there's certain things that are supposed to happen, but no builder is, is, is being held accountable for that because they don't think it's a big deal. And so, as long as we create a system where we don't think it's a big deal, and we don't hold people accountable for that, well, [00:10:00] we're creating this perpetual system where builders come in, they don't think anything of it, and they're building moldy homes right from the start.
And homes 20 years ago, they took 2 years to build. Today, they're throwing up homes in 3 months. And so, we're taking too many shortcuts, and those shortcuts are leaving, leaving us with sicker buildings. And that's really, you know, one of the challenges that we have to face. And so, that to be clear, the Illinois legislation did not address that specific issue.
And that's because, you know, talking about politics and how difficult politics is, you need this stepladder approach where you're addressing the low hanging fruit, right, and then the next, the next time you're proposing bills, you're, you're kind of going up that ladder because if you try to accomplish everything in one bill, you'll never get it passed.
And we've learned that the hard way.
Dr. Tania Dempsey: So what did that bill, like, what are you addressing, like, very specifically? And then what do you have [00:11:00] to build on to get to the next step?
Michael Rubino: That specific bill, I think the biggest achievement is there in Illinois, there is absolutely no licensure for mold inspectors or mold remediators, no licensure, no registry. So what that means is your handyman, someone who knows nothing about mold, can just start working on your bathroom and unfortunately, cross contaminate, create a problem, you know, remediate it improperly, I mean, you name it, all the horror stories you've ever heard of could happen on that particular project because they're not required to have any sort of education or awareness of how to properly deal with mold.
And so, one of the biggest points we wanted to address in that bill was, let's have Illinois actually have a registry or licensure program, something that requires people to become certified, prove that they're certified, right? And, and actually, otherwise it becomes [00:12:00] unlawful to, to remediate mold or to test for mold if you don't have the proper knowledge or skill set.
And so that really, I mean, I don't know if you guys have heard of some of the, the horror stories. There's like pest companies that are remediating mold in some states that have no, no understanding of how to remediate mold. And we're trying to crack down on some of that because I think people, you know, if people don't know any better, they just, somebody says, well, I'm a mold expert, even though they might not be, you know, there's, there's no protection for them.
Right. So that was a big thing we wanted to accomplish. The other thing is just updating, like all of these state departments websites are archaic. I mean, you know, offline we talked about earlier how the CDC is still recommending using bleach on their website. It's like, it's literally from 1996. The EPA at least has updated theirs and they're saying don't use bleach.
Well, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm a constituent, and I'm trying to go for, to a credible source for the right information. And [00:13:00] I see CDC says I could use bleach and EPA says, absolutely don't use bleach. I'm confused, right? And so it gets even worse when you go on the state department's websites. You go to the, you know, the, the state of Illinois and you say mold.
I mean, it's, it was a mess. And so they, they're with our guidance, they're updating all of their information, their public health information and all the information that they give out to the public. And I believe they're also coming up with ways to, you know, mass educate the public as well. And so these are two crucial parts of the bill that are really allow us to make change.
And it's not, it's not massive change. We still have big problems to fix, right? We still have the builder issue. We have a home insurance issue to, to deal with. We have health insurance issue to deal with. There's still big issues to deal with, but this allows us to take those steps and say, Hey, listen, at least we need to educate the public so they, they have, they're better equipped to make good choices.
And then at least we need to make sure we're protecting the public when they do [00:14:00] have issues, they can hire the right people. And not just people that are, you know, claiming they can deal with it. They have no idea how to deal with it, right? And so, those are two things we're really proud about, you know, with this specific bill.
Dr. Tania Dempsey: That's amazing.
Jill Brook: Boy, there's so much to it. And boy, I have to laugh cause it resonated with me when you talked about a handyman who comes in claiming to be able to address your mold because last week when I spoke to Dr. Dempsey about the sheds that had been built to be my office and a gym and the contractor had used moldy lumber to begin with and said, Oh, it's fine,
it's no big deal, this is how we do it. It's fine. It's fine. Then I called three different mold remediation companies and one said they could do a dry fog that would take care of it. One said they could do a mold bomb that would take care of it. And a third said that he could spray something else. But when I looked into these, these products, they were either things that I could just go to the hardware store and buy [00:15:00] myself or they were things that had zero information about them at all.
And then I did notice that nobody was licensed and I thought, whoa, so people can just come in with chemicals charge you a thousand dollars, and that was for tiny, tiny sheds. I can't imagine what it is for a whole house. And you have no idea what you're getting, but that's why I was so excited to find your resource.
But can I ask, where does the good definitive information come from? Like, has there been studies on this? Or who are the right people to
to talk about this?
Michael Rubino: Yeah, so, unfortunately, a lot of the information is kind of piecemealed all over the place. And, and one, one of the issues, one of the real things that Change the Air wanted to address was taking all that information that's piecemealed. You have to go to this organization to find this, and that organization to find that.
And we created a lot of free resources for people. You know, there are so many amazing free resources at changetheairfoundation. org. I encourage [00:16:00] everyone listening to please go and check them out, cause I, when you're confused, trying to figure out how do you navigate this, it's, it can be extremely alarming.
You call six different contractors. They tell you 12 different things, right? You ask them questions, they're backpedaling on their answers. I mean, it can be extremely overwhelming and, and, and it, you know, you're dealing with your health. And you don't know who to trust, it becomes really difficult. And we wanted to make sure that we're taking all of the best information from some of the best organizations out there and kind of putting it all together.
And so I think, you know, when you look at those resources, I think you'll really grasp and everything is cited. So you know exactly where the information came from. There's no questions or doubts on that. With respects to like, the actual industry and all these different people and licensors, I mean, you know, unfortunately I don't really like any of those chemicals.
I think we live in a world today where I think we know so much about so many different things. You don't need chemicals to remove mold. I want to make that like [00:17:00] abundantly clear. And all these bombs and this and that, you know, this isn't a, it's an industry to sell products. And I think some service based companies, I believe they get a little lazy and, and more product dependent.
And I just don't feel that that's something that we need to do. I mean, I love the IICRC S520. It's a 150 pages plus. You don't have to read it. We have a really good guide that kind of condenses the information of how do you remediate properly right there on Change the Air using those guidelines. But it's, it's, what is it?
It's, it's really a) protecting cross contamination from occurring. So when you're disturbing it, you can aerosolize particles that can spread. And, and the, the other fundamental is it's elbow grease. You gotta, you gotta roll up your sleeves. You gotta remove it, right? Not try to kill it. And so. Now Dr.
Dempsey knows how I feel about fogging, right? And unfortunately, it's one of those things that, you know, it's, it sounds good. You know, all these things sound good. You know, Jill, I bet, [00:18:00] you know, when you, when you have these things in front of you, I, I could tell your spidey senses were tingling, right?
Because you, you obviously looked into it and you called Dr. Dempsey. But, you know, if you think about the average person, some of these things sound pretty good. And, you know, if you're not an expert in science, you know, you might want to go for some of these strategies because when you talk to one contractor, maybe it's, it's more cost effective than, you know, trying to do things a little more thoroughly, but, you know, at the, at the, at the end of the day you know, if you spend a dollar on something and it doesn't work, you know, it's like a dollar wasted.
And so I, I always caution people, please, you know, do your homework, do your research, talk to a bunch of people, you know, ask a lot of questions and, you know, make the decision that's right for you and your family. But if it sounds too good to be true, you know, typically that cliche, it probably is.
Dr. Tania Dempsey: And, but, and let me add, Michael, that I, I'm a pretty, you know, savvy [00:19:00] person. I do a lot of research. I think I'm a little, you know, kind of smart and, and, and I've been tricked by, by people in this space myself, right? When I had mold in my home back in 2016, 17, or maybe it was earlier than that. You know, I, you know, I talk to people and do things that I look back and think, well, that was so crazy, but,
but it made sense and there were people who could testify to the, you know, to its effectiveness and there were people, you know, it, it, and it was more reasonably priced and it seemed like, oh, that could be a good solution. So listen, anybody could be kind of tricked because it's just, there's just, it's like the Wild West a little bit out there.
And, and I think that's why I think it's so important for the work that you're, that you're doing. You know, I've learned a lot from you, and I've learned, and I've learned through my patients [00:20:00] experiences, and I've learned, first my own, and then, then my patients, and then, you know, and and people like you along the way who are trying to, like, spread the, the, the right information, but it's, but it's so, so difficult because it's basically hidden amongst all this other, like, you know, junk that is is really unreliable.
So, so think of all these people who are, are sick. They are, they can't, they are allergic, quote unquote allergic, reacting to lots of things. They can eat three foods. They their skin is itching. Their throat is closing. They are, they are ill in many, many, many ways, right? They, they, they, think they have Mast Cell Activation Syndrome.
Some of them have been confirmed to have Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, and, and they're using treatments to stop these dysfunctional mast cells from reacting, and they're not getting better because the trigger, the thing that is making their mast cells react, is [00:21:00] still there. And, and some of them have figured out that mold is a, is a problem, but, but they don't know what to do, or they can't
do anything. They can't leave the home they're living in, or they don't have the resources to, to do anything else. So what do you, I know this is a, this is a tough question, but what could we tell people who are in the beginning stages of trying to figure this out, what they can do? Are there, are there small things, small steps for the, for the individual that they can, you know, do, think about, read?
Michael Rubino: Yeah, I mean, I think first off, you know, getting an education is going to be invaluable, right? Understanding the different steps that you have to take, I think, is really crucial, you know, because if you don't have resources, wasting resources on something, on things that don't work, that, that, that is a mistake that cannot be made.
And, you know, I talk to people all the time, and, and, Not everybody can even remediate, right? And they're [00:22:00] stuck and they're, they're in this situation where they're too sick to work, so they can't actually go and make money to even pay for the remediation, but yet they can't stay there because they're just going to continue to get sick.
And so we have people all the time that reach out and they're in this catch 22. And it's like, look, there are two main things you can do. And this is, this is easy to say, and hard to execute when you're not well, but the reality of it is dilution, right? You may have heard this, like this anomaly, the solution of the, the solution to pollution is dilution, right?
So, you know, obviously it's, it's a interesting statement, but in this reality, opening windows
is going to be a lot, like very helpful because now you're diluting the amount of particles and toxins you're breathing in because you're introducing fresh air. Now, of course, that air could have some particles and toxins with it as well, but at least, you know, depending on how bad the place is or [00:23:00] the room is, depending on where you are, this could be a really smart strategy.
Actually bringing fresh air into the house and diluting the amount that you're inhaling. Now, you know, there are different times of year where humidity might be higher, the heat might be higher, might be uncomfortable. So I understand like there are challenges to this. You know, thinking about what can I do if I'm stuck, I'd be opening windows and doors as much as possible.
I'd be getting as much fresh air as possible. You know, that's something that I think is a big thing that, that people can do. The second thing is, again, easy to say, hard to execute. But cleaning, cleaning the home, you know, if, if I've been sick and I've been bedridden, odds are, I probably haven't been able to clean the house very well, and there might be dust accumulating.
Well, what's in that dust is going to be things like mold, things like bacteria, toxins, VOCs, formaldehyde. I mean, the amount of things that are in our dust probably staggering. Just like when we think about all the chemicals and stuff that could be in our water. And so [00:24:00] when we think about it from this perspective, you know, it might be difficult to do, but finding the energy to clean the place might actually give us more energy in the end, because we're eliminating the amount of toxins, mold, bacteria, stuff, etc.
that we're, we're coming into contact with. Other things we can do, I mean, HVAC filtration. We can upgrade the HVAC filtration that we have. You know, maybe I have a MIRV8. I've just got a standard filter because no one's told me any better that I, that I could, you know, buy a better filter. Going and getting the MIRV13 filter, you know, something that I can, I can upgrade right there that might be have better protection for me and my HVAC system.
Getting my HVAC system cleaned, you know, professionally might be something that could be very cost effective and, and give me some value, especially if I'm concerned about mold in the HVAC system, right? And so, these are things that, that people can do and it might not address, you know, the mold that's in the wall, right?
Because that, that does need to be remediated, but [00:25:00] at least if I'm able to kind of switch rooms and open doors and windows and clean and you know, maybe get some cheap air purifiers for a hundred bucks or something, you know, I'm, I'm starting to take action and, you know, one thing that I, that I think is true is just, just taking action, just taking any steps, you start to see results and, you know, call up, call, call it a placebo effect if you want,
but I think just getting into that mindset that I'm going to conquer this. This will not conquer me, I think is going to make a profound difference. And taking those, those steps, no matter how small they might seem. You might actually notice a big difference and that might give you the boost you need to take those additional steps to really try to either get out of the apartment if I'm renting or create a healthier home if I am the homeowner.
And so I think, you know, hopefully those can resonate with people.
Dr. Tania Dempsey: That's very helpful, that's very helpful, because that's what people need, just like a start [00:26:00] that might, that might alleviate, you know, a little bit of their, of their, of their symptoms.
Jill Brook: Absolutely. Can I ask you what you would say to the contractor who says, well, just take soap and water and clean the mold off the lumber and then go ahead and put your paneling up and you're fine.
Michael Rubino: Well, heh, it's, it's, that's a tricky question. So, there are some camps out there that, that like to use soap and water. I think, could you use soap and water? Sure. But, you have to abrasively remove the mold first. And I don't think soap and water is going to do it. Now, you also might be talking about this from a context of like, okay, I have mold growing in my drywall.
And so just take soap and water to the surface of the drywall. No, no, that's not, that's not going to be enough. That'd be like, you have weeds in your garden. You just go out and cut the head of the weed off. No, no, no. If you don't pull it from its roots out, unfortunately it's going to grow right back.
Right. And so from that perspective, soap and water to your walls like that. No, but you know, you'll, you will hear some [00:27:00] camps talk about how, you If you do it right, you could use something as simple as soap and water. And so what they're talking about from that perspective is they're talking about like, after you remove the porous contents, you can use something like soap and water to clean up the byproducts, which again is fine because there's surfactant, you know, in the mix that they're talking about.
But I personally like, you know, botanical antimicrobials just because, just like I like antimicrobial soap when I'm washing my hands, right? I just, I wanna, I wanna have extra protection against microbes that I might not want in my, in my house as I'm cleaning my house, right? And so, you know, it's it's a tricky subject, obviously, because you, you've got different schools of thoughts and there's different contexts and variables, but, you know, if you're, if you're just trying to wipe mold off of your walls, that's not gonna, that's not gonna solve your problem, unfortunately.
Jill Brook: And it also seems like some of the contractors out there think that the stain is the problem. And as long as [00:28:00] you make it look nice, then you're fine, but what I'm guessing that you would say is just cause you've removed the appearance doesn't mean that it's all taken care of necessarily.
Michael Rubino: Well, you know, from that logic, you could just paint over the stain, and then the stain would look less, less apparent, right? And so, you know, that, that logic doesn't really work. I think the stain is indicative of an issue, right? And so, I can't tell you how many times I've seen like a stain underneath someone's sink, just to give you an example.
And I actually saw the data come back because we had a swab taken of that of that stain or something. And there was actually like quite a bit of aspergillus, right? Personally, I don't want to have quite a bit of aspergillus under my kit, under my sink, but you know, that stain that most contractors would have been like, Oh, it's just a little stain.
It's no problem. There's no mold there. There might be, right? And so this is why I think, why in the remediation space, like I think testing is important [00:29:00] because testing validates the presence of, or, or not of certain species of mold. And if the goal is to eliminate certain species of molds, especially when they're of high quantity, I think validating, you know, if there is mold present or not is probably a smart maneuver.
I think when you're remediating that stain, what you'll notice as you're actually cleaning it thoroughly, that stain will lessen and lessen until it's really almost, you know, not even visible at all. And so. Yeah, I mean those are my thoughts on that.
Jill Brook: So there's, there's the appearance of mold, which is not always 100 percent correlated with mold. And forgive me for being still sort of new to this, but you talked about spores and you talked about mycotoxins. And so do you mind giving like, for those of us who are newbies, like the primer on what are those three things?
[00:30:00] And kind of, how, how much do you have to work to make sure that all three of them are gone?
Michael Rubino: Yeah, so that's a great question. First off, after this, I'm going to email you a YouTube link that I want you to look at. It's really interesting. I found it on YouTube the other day, and actually it's a, under a microscope, it's a colony of mold, and it's showing you how the spores are coming off of it. It looks like a volcano, honestly.
Of just, like, spores just constantly spewing out, and obviously that some, some of those particles could be toxins, too. And that's dependent upon mold's self defense mechanism. It, it creates toxins as a self defense mechanism, like a skunk, you know, would skunk you. Right? When it feels threatened. So, you know, typically the molds themselves are threatened by the molds themselves.
So you might have like Aspergillus fighting with Stachybotrys or trying to take over the same real estate, right? And so, you know, it's, it's, you have [00:31:00] to have the organism first, right? The organism comes first. And when you have that organism start to grow and colonize, then it's going to look, it's going to look, look to reproduce.
And as it's reproducing those spores, just like that volcano. I mean, when you watch this video, you'll see exactly what I mean. It's, it's so fascinating.
Jill Brook: We'll put the link in the show notes.
Michael Rubino: We put the link in the show notes too. When you watch, when you look at it from that perspective, you start to see all this stuff spewing off.
You really start to understand, okay, wow. So this is like, this is being produced, like every second, just hundreds of these things every second, depending on how, how big the colony is. Could be thousands of these every second. Could be hundreds of thousands. Could be millions, right? All of it depends. I mean, 250,000 spores can fit on the head of a pin.
Just to give you some perspective here. So when we go at it from that, you know. We have to understand, okay, so we have the organism, we have to remove the organism. Like, the organism that actually has roots that grow into our buildings, we want to remove that organism. Then, [00:32:00] we realize, well, that organism has been there for however long it's been there, right?
Maybe it's been five years, maybe it's been five days, who knows? But as long as it's been there, just like that volcano, it's just been spewing stuff into the environment. And now we, now we're concerned about the spores. We're concerned about the toxins. I mean, if you've ever heard a story of somebody saying they removed all the mold, but they still didn't feel well, well, it's because probably
all of the lava from the volcano is still all over their house, and they're still being exposed to that, even though they got rid of the volcano, right? And so, you know, we're looking at it from this perspective of, okay, we have to figure out what allowed that organism to grow in the first place, and then how do we solve that problem, and then what about all the stuff it's created as long as it's been there, and how do we solve that problem?
You know, and, and so that's really part of this process of how it works. And so, look at the spore as like you would a seed, and I think it'll start to, to make more sense.
Jill Brook: Okay. That's really helpful. Thank you.
Dr. Tania Dempsey: It's a, it's, it's a lot. It's a lot to think [00:33:00] about. And again, when you don't have reliable information until now, right? I, I know that, listen, what you're trying to do is, I think, revolutionary and it's necessary, but until now, really, you know, it's the information is, is mixed. There are definitely, you know, Inspectors that I've spoken to and remediators that I've spoken to who don't understand or believe in the mycotoxin role in illness.
I don't know how you cannot believe. It's sort of weird to me. It's like, well, it's there, you know, but they don't know how to test. They don't know how to confirm that. There's a lot of controversy about testing. Can we talk a little bit about home testing and, and you know, I have patients who you know, tell me, I'll tell them I'm suspicious of mold, I might do a mycotoxin test on them.
Let's say I find some trichothecene which, you know, in my [00:34:00] mind, you know, so for people who don't know, they're, they're, these different mycotoxins can be, these different toxins be, they can be released by different species of, of molds. And there's some overlap. But when I see trichothecene for instance I immediately think about stachybotrys as one type of mold that makes trichothecene.
And stachybotrys, you know, some people would call, quote unquote, black mold. Although, you know, I, I, I hesitate to say that because we now, we now understand that, that some mold is sort of invisible, right? And you may not see it, so it doesn't have to be black, but that's sort of like the teaching. That was how I was taught, right?
So I'm going to put it out there, but you don't need to see stachybotrys, but, but if I, if I see trichothecene I'm already thinking, okay, this is, this could be the problem. So they call a, an inspector, and the inspector comes to the house and, and, and looks around and doesn't see anything. [00:35:00] Now, that already concerns me because the patient has already told me that they have some suspicions that there's been water intrusion.
So like, can't be normal, but anyway, and then the mold inspector says, okay, we're gonna put this thing in the middle of the room to collect air samples. And then we're gonna, based on these air samples, we're gonna see whether you have mold. And then the air sampling comes back with some spores of like, Aspergillus, but, but, it's not more than the Aspergillus outside, which is what they're comparing it to, because by the way, there is Aspergillus and mold outside and especially the time, depending on the time of year, depending on the the season, especially in New York, right?
This is the season right now for, we're getting close to it, not quite now, but maybe in a few weeks when the leaves start to come down and it gets [00:36:00] wet and moldy and guess what? Aspergillus. So, so anyway, these mold inspectors will say, Well, you have some, you know, a few spores, but it's not more than outside.
So, you're fine.
Michael Rubino: All right, so, to address the first thing you said about mycotoxins you know, the FDA regulates mycotoxins in our food supply. Don't ask me how well or even how, okay, but, but they do. And so obviously we understand that mycotoxins, not only are they real not only are they produced by mold, but they're a problem.
And we have tons of studies on how mycotoxins are carcinogenic and immune system disruptors and all kinds of things, right? And so this is all known, known, known literature. Now why a mold professional might not know or understand that it's unless you are somebody who physically looks into that information
you just might not be aware of it. And unfortunately, I've been, I've been in this industry for [00:37:00] over 10 years now, and I can tell you this year is like the first year that I've seen mycotoxins in some of the, mentioned in some of the teachings for our continuing education classes. And so, I, I bet 10 years from now you'll see more mold professionals talking about it, but it, you know, unfortunately things take time.
Now, with respects to testing and home testing story you told me about basically someone coming in and they do an air sample in the center of the room and, you know, as long as it's less than outside, everybody thinks it's fine. That is a flawed ideology because, you know, first off, the air cassette only collects 75 milliliters of air.
Think of a two liter bottle of Pepsi right now, two liters, 75 milliliters. It's a very, very small fraction of that two liter bottle of Pepsi. Now think about a 10 by 10 room. I'm in like a 10, maybe a 10 by 12 room right now. I mean, I could probably put hundreds of two [00:38:00] liter bottles of Pepsi in this thing.
And we're talking about something that is like the size of a cap,, of the cap almost, right? That's how much air they're collecting. Okay, so when you put that in perspective, the further away I test from a source of mold, the more it looks like there's no mold, okay? And so, and again, when you watch this video that I hope everyone watches on the little volcano thing I'm talking about, when you see that video, you'll really start to understand.
It's just, it's just spewing out. It's it's not controlled. It's not like there's a fan attached where it's blowing into the center of the room. It's just spewing out. And what did we learn from COVID, right? Remember the magic rule, six feet apart, everybody's got to be six feet apart, right? And so what we learned is something so small, like a virus or bacteria or mold, it's very light.
It doesn't travel through the air very much. Then how, this is why you want to stay six feet apart from somebody, because it's very unlikely for it to travel that six feet. However, [00:39:00] here's where the variables are. Once, once it's aerosolizes, it's going to attach to dust that's already in the air. Now, if you've ever sat near a window on a sunny day and you saw the light refract off the dust and you're like, listen, I don't get it.
I cleaned my house a hundred times, I have air purifiers. There's still dust everywhere, right? It's nothing you can do about that, unfortunately. But these microbes, they attach to the dust. They hitch a ride on the dust. They become part of the dust. We've already seen that ray of light. You know that our dust is everywhere.
Well, you are inhaling that dust that has viruses and bacteria and mold and you name it. And so that I want people to understand that. Now, if that's the case, Michael, how come the air test doesn't pick up the spores and the dust because the dust is too big to fit in the cassette. It's designed to capture small, small, tiny particles.
So it's not, it's not picking up the dust in the cassette. Therefore you're missing most of whatever might be happening in [00:40:00] that room by testing in the center of the room. Now I've been, I've been saying this for a long time, ask me how many inspectors are still testing in the center of the room, right?
It's just,
it's, I don't know if it's laziness or if it's just a misunderstanding of the technology or whatever it may be, but it's like time in and time out. I did an air sample in the center of the room. Guess what? There's less Aspergillus inside than outside. Therefore, your house is not a problem.
And it's like, well, that's not exactly accurate, right? Based upon all the reasons that I told you. So, I think testing the dust, people might have heard of things like ERMI, right, before. I think testing the dust is a better barometer, like a better screening tool as to what you're being exposed to. I'm not going to say it's perfect either, right?
It's not a perfect scientific technology, but it is far better understanding what I'm being exposed to across like as a screening tool than doing an air sample in the center of every room across your house, and it'll probably be cheaper too.
Jill Brook: Well, it [00:41:00] just, it's, it's mind blowing and and I am thinking about your website right now, The ChangeTheAirFoundation. org, and thinking about how many different kinds of information it has. And I'm really grateful that it has information about every step of this process. So I guess I just want listeners to know that if they're feeling overwhelmed right now, like, Oh my gosh, I'm so you're supposed to know about this and this and this and this,
I think your website does an amazing job of walking people through and having lots of videos and you had mentioned that five, six, something CRC document, I forget what it's called exactly, but that is amazing. And I think that's the end all be all of, of what the expert consensus is on mold remediation, right?
So I guess I just want to assure listeners that if they're at all confused or overwhelmed right now, it's all on your website.
Michael Rubino: Oh yeah. If you, yes, I know, I know this can be overwhelming of course, to think about, you know, if you go there, there's a little resources tab and you click start [00:42:00] here, it is, we broke everything down into five simple steps and you don't read all five steps at one, you start at one, you know, you don't click two until you're done with one and that's the way to do it.
Just step by step and it starts to take the overwhelm and make it more simplistic because it really, it really is simple. I know it sounds complex because we're talking about some science and microbiology and mixing that all with how that relates to our health. I mean, it could be a lot to take in in one sitting, but you just have to understand it's a step by step process, you know, and when you break it down into those five simple steps, it becomes a lot easier.
And I think we do a really good job on the website of giving people the information. How do you vet somebody? Right? And I think that's really important because we, we've talked about several times today, you've got six different people, you get six different things. This person wants a test here. [00:43:00] And we have part of our, our actual step by step process.
We go through all the different types of testing technologies that exist, how they should be used, what an inspection should look like. You know, an inspection, by the way, should take several hours at your home. Just like when you're buying a home and you get a home inspection, it takes some hours. Because they really should be surveying the outside, the inside.
Really, one of the key pieces to this puzzle is where to test, right? I already mentioned testing in the center room is no good. Well, how do we use air tests then? Well, you want to test as close to where you suspect there might be an issue as possible. I mean, how close could you do it? Well, you could literally drill a hole through the wall, stick a tube through the wall, and take it from behind the wall, which is the most likely candidate for where it would be growing.
And so, how do you do that though? Well, you have to first have at least some understanding of homes and buildings, and you have to have at least some, some tools or technologies like infrared [00:44:00] cameras or moisture meters that give you a sense to what might be happening. I mean, even high powered flashlights, you actually take a flashlight and you shine it down, you know, parallel with the wall, actually.
And you, you might notice some stains or things that you didn't notice before that might give you a clue to, Hey, let's test this wall. And so, you know, you, you really need to understand the different types of technologies so that you could ask the inspectors, Hey, are you going to do this and do that?
Because if they say, no, I'm just going to, Oh, just don't worry. We're going to set up a pump in the center of your house. So we're going to take an air sample. We'll take an air sample outside, compare it to outside. You know, then you know that that might not give you the information that you're looking for.
Which, look, if you think your house is contributing to your health I think you want to find something, you know, you want that answer as to what is what's going on, because then you could fix it, right? You certainly can't fix it if you don't know what's wrong. And [00:45:00] so when people come in to tell you your house looks clean and it looks immaculate and there's no way there's mold just based upon looking at the house visually, I mean, it, it probably feels really good to hear,
but it's not helpful because it doesn't allow me to actually take a next step. And so that, that guide specifically is written with that mindset of, these are the technologies and tools you should know. These are the questions you really should be asking. And this is how you find the right people to help you.
Dr. Tania Dempsey: And the reality, right, of the situation, Michael, is that, as you sort of alluded to earlier, this is, this is really a pervasive problem. I think it's going to get worse. Some of it from the building practices that you discussed. There may be so many other factors, but I think it's getting worse.
At least the number of patients that I'm seeing, maybe it's because I'm tuned in, maybe it's because of the [00:46:00] patient population, but I just think that, you know, this is, this is the time to, even if you don't think this is what's going on, you need to educate yourself so that if something should happen, you know, I'll give you, I'll give you an example.
Since I've been through a mold remediation already, several times, and unfortunately, and and I've learned a lot from the experience. The minute we have a leak somewhere, which unfortunately we had recently again don't ask we are, we are on it, yesterday type of thing, you know, like we know how quickly mold can grow.
We've learned the process. We know now, you know, how that you have to rip everything up right away in a certain amount of space, like you can't just be like, okay, I'm going to cut a little hole here. So, so we've learned. And so I, I just, I guess I encourage everyone, whether they think they're being [00:47:00] exposed to mold or not, to just be aware.
Because I think you can be more proactive, first off, if something happens, but also proactive to prevent it from happening in the first place, which is also, I think, a big step.
Michael Rubino: Yeah. I mean, prevention is, is obviously worth so much more than the cure. You said something really interesting about how you think this problem is getting worse. I agree, and I'll bake it into some data for you. But I've been, you know, I've been around doing this for over 10 years now. I think I'm on my 12th year here.
And I can tell you factually, it's definitely getting worse. Like, the amount of calls just continues to increase and increase. But it's not just that. If you look at the EPA and HUD's joint study, the American Healthy Home Survey, they did the American Healthy Home Survey, I think it was 2006, American Healthy Home Survey 2, which was done in 2019, so a span of about 13 years.
Every single mold, with the exception of one, so 35 of [00:48:00] the 36 molds that they tested for, went up in prevalence. Every single one. And when you look at it from that perspective, that tells you, okay, the houses are getting worse, not better, right? And so, I think we, we're staring down the potential of a pretty serious epidemic that unfortunately probably will get worse before it gets better, and It start, you know, if we want this to really end with us,
and we really need to actually start to become more aware, become more educated. You know, help out where we can. I mean, we have a whole program. If you've been listening to this and you want to like volunteer to change laws in your state, by the way, you can do that. I mean, we have a whole page that tells you really how to contact your, your legislators, how to, how to basically get the process started, and then we already have the format of the bill that we can introduce to them and kind of take over from there, but, you know, it's,
if we don't do something about this, you know, [00:49:00] I don't know who will. And, and, and that's, that's just the hard honest truth because builders are still building the way they're building. The building community, and I'm just going to be honest, has gotten worse over the years, not better. Home insurance companies have gotten worse, not better.
I mean, I actually just had a leak in my house too, Dr. Dempsey, and I called my insurance company. It was the, probably the, one of the funniest conversations I think I've ever had, but not in a good way. And they would not cover the claim unless a hole was made in either the side of my house or in my roof for, before they would cover the claim.
And I live in Florida. If you haven't heard about Florida insurance is already expensive here because of the hurricanes. Right. But I'm like, wait a second. So, so I pay you all of this money. I pay them a lot of money. Okay. And, and you're telling me that I don't even know what this will cost, but I'm, I'm looking at it.
It's really not that big of a deal, [00:50:00] right? You should definitely cover this. You're telling me you won't cover this, unless something like a missile made a hole in my house or my roof. Basically they want like a tree branch to come through my house or something.
Dr. Tania Dempsey: Wow.
Michael Rubino: Naturally now I'm like, I have to shop around, you know, for other insurance companies again.
And it's like, and I know this, I know this stuff. I've read all the fine print. So I wasn't sure like what happened exactly. I think it was like, it's something that's slipped through on a renewal. Okay. This happens to people every day, every day people have leaks and issues and they pay all this money for homeowners insurance,
and then when they go to cover it, it's like, Hey, yeah, we'll write you a check for 2, 500 bucks, because that's what you have for mold coverage. Now, 20, 30 years ago, there was no mold coverage. It was, you just, you just were covered. You had mold, you were covered up to your policy limit, which could be like 300, 000, half a million, whatever, whatever your policy limit is.[00:51:00]
Now, it's like you have maybe 10, 000 if you're lucky, and that's it. And so anything above that 10, 000 would be on you, the homeowner, to pay for. And so, we have a big problem there. You guys already, I don't have to preach to the choir to you about health insurance, right? I mean, you know, health insurance isn't accepted, right?
There's, there's no health insurance for mold toxicity, is there? There's an ICD 10 code from the World Health Organization, but that hasn't translated over into American health insurance policies. And so, you know, like I said earlier, we have big problems. You know, the work is far from, far from over, but you just, just to be able to understand where we're going.
And the fact that you have an organization that really does understand how to solve this problem. And it's, it's not going to be complex, but it's going to require government stepping in and making sure that people are building homes better, [00:52:00] people are insuring homes better, you know, and that when they are sick and things, the chips are down, they've got resources to get proper treatment.
And unfortunately that today that doesn't exist, but we hope that, that tomorrow through the work of the foundation, that, that it will.
Dr. Tania Dempsey: So much for the work that you're doing, and I'm, I'm honored to be on the medical advisory panel for Change the Air Foundation. I love the work that you're doing and however I can help, I'm, I'm there and is there anything left that we, that you want to make sure that we cover today? I mean, I can, we can talk for hours.
I, I wish we could. We'll have to have you back on again, but any, you know, last thoughts?
Michael Rubino: No, just, I, I, you know, I want to thank you guys so much for even thinking of me to have me on here.
And sign up for our newsletter if you can. It's, it's, we don't, we don't bombard you, we promise, but get some really good stuff going on in there every week or so.
Dr. Tania Dempsey: That's wonderful. Thank you. Thank you.[00:53:00]
Jill Brook: Michael, Dr. Dempsey, thank you so much. I have to say that as a patient, what I'm hearing is that the construction companies are kind of organizing to cover their butts to not be liable about this. And I saw some of that when I looked into it. The homeowner's insurance is making sure that their liability is limited.
The health insurance is not covering any of it, and except for this foundation, I feel like patients are really on their own trying to figure out what's what. So I am just so grateful, and I feel like, you know, whether somebody has had this happen to them already or not, it pays to know about you and to get familiar with your resources. Boy, if you can prevent this, it's, it's sounds like such a nightmare if you have it happen full on to you and, and thank you for providing the education on how to prevent it, if that's where people are at, or to have solutions, [00:54:00] if unfortunately, that's where they're at.
Michael Rubino: Yeah, thank you guys too. You know, I can't, can't do this alone, obviously, and thank you for recognizing all the hard work and, you know, obviously, thanks to my amazing team that's helped me really make this come to life, because I, I, we wouldn't be this way without them either, and so, you know, it's it's gonna take a village of us to, to make change, but we've got, we've got a pretty good start to this village here.
Dr. Tania Dempsey: Sounds like it.
Jill Brook: Well, hey listeners, that's all for now, but we'll be back again next week with a normal episode of the POTScast and we'll be back again soon with another episode of Mast Cell Matters with Dr. Tania Dempsey as our special host. So thank you for listening. May your mast cells be good to you and please join us again soon.
