Episode Transcript
POTS Diary with Hanna
[00:00:00] Jill Brook: Hello fellow POTS patients and groovy people who care about POTS patients. I'm Jill Brook, your horizontal host, and today we have an episode of the POTS Diaries with Hanna. Hanna, thank you so much for joining us today.
[00:00:13] Hanna: Hello, thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
[00:00:17] Jill Brook: We're excited to get to know you, so let's start with the easy stuff. What's your age?
[00:00:22] Hanna: I am 29.
[00:00:24] Jill Brook: Where are you now, and where did you grow up?
[00:00:26] Hanna: I am currently in Portland, Oregon. I grew up in a bunch of different places. I was born in California and then Colorado through most of elementary and high school and then Washington State for school and teaching for five years and lived there and then I moved here to Portland in 2020 to
[00:00:47] Jill Brook: Wow! Okay, so where's your favorite place you've lived?
[00:00:51] Hanna: Ooh ooh, that's really hard. Maybe, probably Portland. I really enjoy being closer to my sister again. And she's lived here for a while and now we live in the same city again. So that is really great because we're pretty close.
[00:01:07] Jill Brook: Very nice! Okay, so, how would your friends and family describe your personality?
[00:01:13] Hanna: Kind and compassionate and patient, creative, supportive, artistic and crafty. Laughter.
[00:01:22] Jill Brook: tell us more about the artistic and crafty stuff!
[00:01:25] Hanna: I really love doing a lot of therapeutic art and like it is art therapy, but it's like self guided kind of stuff. So I've found that has been really fun. I also bullet journal, so I get really creative with that kind of stuff and do a lot of calligraphy. And
[00:01:46] Jill Brook: Did you call that a bullet journal?
[00:01:49] Hanna: a bullet journal. Yes,
[00:01:50] Jill Brook: Yeah, what is that?
[00:01:51] Hanna: It is where I have, just pretty much start with a blank dotted grid journal and turn it into a planner and yeah, it's a fun way for me to be creative, but also stay organized.
And yeah, so I make my own like weekly and monthly planner out of just like a blank journal.
[00:02:12] Jill Brook: Very smart! I like that!
[00:02:14] Hanna: a lot of fun.
[00:02:16] Jill Brook: If we were to force you to brag about yourself, what are you good at?
[00:02:20] Hanna: Two things come to mind. One is the artistic and crafty kind of thing. My team at work actually just gave me a little award for bringing the community together by making cool, artistic group birthday cards and things like that.
[00:02:36] Jill Brook: Gosh, okay, wait a second, tell us more about that. That sounds neat.
[00:02:41] Hanna: yeah, I work in a museum and we have a museum engagement team with all the educators and we like to support each other and encourage each other in one way. I feel like I contribute best to that is making pretty birthday cards for everyone and making them big enough for everyone to sign them and my team recently gave me a little award just recognizing that that is something that helps our community bring us together and things like that.
[00:03:14] Jill Brook: Very cool.
[00:03:15] Hanna: the other thing would be also work related, but I, I know a lot about snakes.
[00:03:21] Jill Brook: Wow, I did not see that coming.
[00:03:24] Hanna: He has kind of a left turn. It's the other side of me. I'm a science educator at a museum and so one of the spaces I get to work in is with our animals and we have a couple snakes and I get to handle them and take care of them and Every Saturday, tell my co workers a little fun fact about snakes.
[00:03:42] Jill Brook: Wow, so have you come to a point where you really just genuinely love snakes? You don't feel like the eww, disgust response?
[00:03:50] Hanna: Yes, 100%. I don't think I've ever really had you disgust response to them. Like, I've always been fascinated by them and My favorite thing is when I do get to get, we have a ball python that's really chill and we let people touch him and pet him, like, you know, under my guidance and care. But my favorite thing is talking to people who have some misconceptions about snakes or are scared of them and, and talking about how most of them are not dangerous and not going to hurt you and that this one's been here for a long time and he's really sweet and never hurt anyone and a lot of people come around. My favorite thing is leaning into that fascination rather than people being scared by them.
[00:04:36] Jill Brook: Okay, well let's talk a little bit about... Not POTS, but pre POTS. Can you give us a snapshot of what your life looked like before you got POTS? And when would that have been?
[00:04:48] Hanna: Yeah, so that was pre high school. So like growing up POTS showed up in high school for me. So I was a very happy and energetic child and I played a lot of sports. I was very active with my friends and growing up in Colorado, we had a lot of opportunity for that. Like, I would bike downtown. Oh, go skiing. I play soccer, rock climbing, hiking. Running, walking with my dog, and so it was a lot of activity before and, and during honestly, so that kind of gets into my POTS journey though.
[00:05:26] Jill Brook: Okay, well, tell us what was the first sign that something was...
[00:05:30] Hanna: Yeah, so my first Episode that I called them was like a fainting spell was in high school, and I was working with some other classmates on the floor like we were doing some group project and I stood up to go back to our seats. It was time to go back to our seats and I stood up and all of a sudden couldn't see and fell back down and was shaking.
And that was really scary to happen in the middle of biology class and, yeah, that was just my first one that I remember and I didn't take it very seriously for a long time and Yeah,
I
[00:06:14] Jill Brook: happening? Or...
[00:06:15] Hanna: it did. Not that dramatically but it would happen periodically in my late teens and I don't remember the teacher saying anything, unfortunately, but also I I had a, a classmate just make some really awful comments when that happened and that stuck in my head. And then when I started talking about it, or like telling people like, Oh, I feel kind of dizzy when I stand up and like, I don't feel great and like feel lightheaded. I got very used to hearing, well, everyone feels a little lightheaded when they stand up sometimes.
And so I really internalized that for a long time of like, it would happen so infrequently and didn't really take over my life for a long time that I didn't take it seriously either, so.
[00:07:07] Jill Brook: So at what point did you take it seriously?
[00:07:09] Hanna: Well probably three or four years ago, it started progressively getting worse, and also in my late teens, early twenties, I also had a lot of mental health side of things that were taking the priority in my medical Journey at the time and I mean, I also got diagnosed with anxiety and depression, but like, for other reasons, I don't think was very related to my POTS at the time, but then it started getting more serious to where in 2022, I started vlogging my episodes and like, noticing that like, it was happening probably about one to four times a month. Where I would stand up and get really dizzy, I would either lose vision, I would fall down, I would shake, and it started a journey. Those, however many years, 10 or so years, I'd gone to periodic doctors being like, Hey, I have this thing where I stand up too fast and I get dizzy and no one really took it seriously and had a lot of took my blood pressure, like orthostatic and then not seeing anything.
So they're just, I don't know. But when I started logging it and having pretty serious ones where I would just like, wake up on the floor and not know what happened and I lived alone a lot of the time and so it started happening. Yeah, 1 to 4 times a month in that and then this year it started increasing to where it was happening seven or eight times at the beginning of the year and I'm like 13 fainting episodes in one month and so this year it started getting a lot worse and I also finally got diagnosed with POTS officially this year.
[00:08:50] Jill Brook: Okay, so how long was that altogether to get diagnosed? And do you think that the fact that you did have a diagnosis of anxiety made it harder to get diagnosed? Did they want to just attribute everything to that? Because I guess a lot of POTS patients who don't have that diagnosis say that's what happened. And is it even worse?
[00:09:10] Hanna: I've definitely heard that. So it took about 15 years from that first episode to now getting a diagnosis and I don't think the anxiety played much of a part in it because that was a true diagnosis. I also had anxiety, but like, I think it finally took being referred to neurology.
And neurology had its own adventures, I probably went jumping through hoops for neurology kind of testing for about a year or two before them being like, no, I think it might be this thing called POTS and you should talk to cardiology. And then finally getting, you know, a month to see my primary care to get a cardiology referral, and that was 3 months out and and then that kind of finally got the ball rolling with the cardiology.
I've gotten diagnosed by a naturopath and by a cardiologist now with POTS and my first diagnosis was with the naturopath. And it was actually my psychiatrist who said for the first time to me, it was like, this sounds like a thing called POTS. And she was like, I'm going to put my feelers out and see if I know anyone who'd diagnosis or treats this and ended up referring me to the naturopath. My first appointment with her, I took a really long medical intake and she was the 1st 1 who was really like, I believe you, this sounds like POTS and then from there, we kind of started some treatment, but also did like, essentially a standing test to diagnose and was positive and I got diagnosed with POTS but then was also going down the cardiology route at the same time. So I got that diagnosis from her right before the cardiologist consults and the initial cardiologist was Not a great experience. When I told him that I was like, I just got diagnosed with POTS from this naturopath.
He started explaining to me and kept saying things like, well, in a real POTS diagnosis and just kind of very dismissive. At one point told me I might outgrow my symptoms but did eventually order the couple of tests that I needed, like a heart monitor and an echocardiogram.
And so those all have now happened actually just in like the last month and all of them came back with no, it's not a heart rhythm or structure issue. You just have POTS. And I finally saw the electrophysiologist who I thought I was trying to get a tilt table test from and because of all the research I've done has been like, you need that for a solid diagnosis.
And he started explaining to me how he wasn't going to order 1 and I was starting to get upset, but he kind of followed it with because I believe you and you have a history and let's just start treating you so that you feel better. And so that was like, okay,
[00:12:15] Jill Brook: So you waited 15 years and then you got diagnosed twice in a row.
[00:12:19] Hanna: yes.
[00:12:20] Jill Brook: Okay.
[00:12:21] Hanna: I think like almost three times over at this point, but like, yeah, it's a firm, like I have POTS and yes, it's very validating after 15 years of like, not knowing what was going on at all.
[00:12:34] Jill Brook: Yeah. And does having a diagnosis help you? Because of the diagnosis have you gotten access to new information or treatments or things? Has it made a big difference or are you still living with the same symptoms that you always have been?
[00:12:48] Hanna: I think a little bit of both, I think like at first with the naturopath most of what I did was lifestyle changes and she introduced me to a lot of the hydration piece and electrolytes and still working on those compression tights because can't figure out which ones are gonna work for me, but we worked on a lot of those things and then now with Cardiologist specialist that I'm working with now, too.
He prescribed me a beta blocker and so I've just started that and seeing how it works. And so, yes, I think getting the diagnosis and finally getting the treatment has helped and it's starting to help. And at the same time, I'm still figuring things out.
[00:13:37] Jill Brook: So I relate with the quest to find the right compression stockings. I am going to toss out an idea for some enterprising person out there to create the company or the organization that lets you try a whole bunch of different ones for free and then send all the rejects on to someone else because I feel like it took me a couple years to find ones and to realize that I needed to get men's compression stockings because apparently my legs are shaped more like men's legs than women's legs and I wasted so much money on compression stockings that didn't fit
[00:14:12] Hanna: Oh, totally.
[00:14:13] Jill Brook: and so they did more harm than good.
[00:14:15] Hanna: Yeah, I think right now it's just like, what I pay the most attention to is their return policy.
[00:14:22] Jill Brook: yeah.
[00:14:22] Hanna: I have to figure out if these are going to work for me. But if not, I need to be able to send them back. Yeah, it's a whole thing.
[00:14:30] Jill Brook: Okay. So what's the biggest life change you've made because of POTS?
[00:14:34] Hanna: I think... It's been harder to exercise in the last, like, six, seven months that things have gotten a lot worse. Because I feel like I've always been a very active person, and so it's really hard not feeling like I have the energy. fatigue is a big one for me that I struggle with, of just, like, having the energy to do most things and I'm working full time. So and I think the other thing that's been a big change for me has been going through like a formal ADA accommodation process at work because like I am fully capable of doing my job. There's just certain things that, like, I do need more bathroom breaks or flexibility with scheduling if I do have an episode or things like that. It's been a process of figuring those things out and asking for what I need when I need help.
[00:15:30] Jill Brook: What advice would you have for people going through that process?
[00:15:34] Hanna: Ooh you are your best advocate and you know your body and what you need. Something that took me a long time to learn.
[00:15:43] Jill Brook: Because it sounds like your coworkers love you. They're giving you awards. They appreciate you. How did they respond when you asked for accommodations?
[00:15:53] Hanna: Oh, they are so helpful and supportive through this whole process. I have been so blessed by amazing co workers that have just been really... Supportive of like, even before I had accommodations, like I would let them know. I'd be like, Hey, I just like had an episode and I need someone to come cover the space for me or Hey, my heart rate's freaking out.
I need to go lay behind that desk for a while and they're like, okay, go do what you need to and. I mean, even to the point where when I did the standing tests with the naturopath, I had some restrictions of like, I had to go off of a medication and I had to be dehydrated for that test. And so, like, it was a rough week.
And some of my coworkers came together to, like, organize a little meal train to help me have dinners that week and, like, just support me through a lot of this. And so they've been amazing. For sure.
[00:16:49] Jill Brook: Boy, you could really freak out a classroom of kids if you passed out while teaching them about a snake, I'm guessing.
[00:16:57] Hanna: Oh, yeah. I mean, oh, gosh, yeah, with the snake definitely would be an anxiety I've had because I was a teacher for about five years. I was a special education teacher before I have been teaching at the museum now and and in between even I was an in home teacher and a nanny and like so I've been in child care or education for about 10 years in my career and It's always been an anxiety of mine because I've had times where I haven't passed out in the classroom but I've had symptoms. When I was teaching special education, I was with kindergarten through second grade.
So a lot of it would involve getting on the floor, crouching down to their level, and when it would stand back up sometimes, like, I would have to hold on to things. I always had that anxiety in the back of my head of what if I pass out in the middle of class? And like, what is that going to do?
Thankfully, that never has happened. But like, even with the classes I've taught here at the museum I've had to take breaks in between classes of just like laying on the floor and, and having someone help reset my classroom. so it's been a challenge being in both in education and having class for sure.
[00:18:09] Jill Brook: Yeah. I mean, have you ever passed out in a way that was dangerous to your safety in terms of hitting your head or passing out in a public place where, you know, goodness knows what could happen or in the middle of a street, or do you take any kind of precautions around that kind of thing?
[00:18:27] Hanna: Till the last one I'm really working hard on standing up slower, but it's easier said than done. The most public, I think of an episode I really had was that first one in class, but other than that, it's mostly been at home by myself. And thankfully I've never like hit my head on the way down or anything like that. I have a very short window between standing up, realizing something's about to happen, and either trying to sit or get back down closer to the floor.
And like in some cases I'm able to be like, I'm still next to the couch or the bed and kind of angle myself that way when I fall. But actually, my most recent one was just like by myself in the bathroom and I tried to sit back down, but I missed the chair , and like, I didn't injure myself. But I, some of my episodes, I have convulsive syncope, so I am shaking as well when I've fallen down.
And so the most recent one, I was. bathroom on the floor and kind of bumping my head on the floor, which was not fun, which gave me quite the headache, but yeah, so it's very scary to have those like by myself, and I don't have much of a system. I mean, I've thought about like something like a, a service animal, but don't know if I have the means right now to make that happen. But I have my emotional support animals, but they don't help too much except for like, you know, the emotional side afterwards, but the safety, not as much.
[00:20:01] Jill Brook: Yeah, for sure. And I mean, do you ever have to like get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom? And the reason that I ask is that when my POTS was getting bad, I would faint pretty hard, but during the day I could control it because I kind of knew what to look out for. Like don't get too warm or I'd feel it coming on and I could sit down in time.
But at night in the middle of the night, when I'd get up to go to the bathroom quite a few times, because I was drinking so much, I would not remember it in the morning, but sometimes I would find signs that I had passed out in the middle of the night. Like one time I even found blood in a couple different beds.
[00:20:46] Hanna: Oh, no.
[00:20:47] Jill Brook: so I had no memory of it, but apparently I had gotten up to go to the bathroom. I must have fainted. I must have slept in one bed for a while, but then I woke up in a different bed and So that was kind of a wake up call to me to be like, Oh boy, this is something you should take more seriously.
And so since you live alone, I guess yeah. Do you wake up in the middle of the night and how do you know you're not fainting then?
[00:21:14] Hanna: Yeah, I don't think I've had that problem. I don't often wake up in the night. I also have sleep apnea as well. So I wear a CPAP that helps me sleep most of the way through the night. All the way, usually. For me, it's almost always just like getting up too quickly.
So I have had like getting up out of bed in the morning where I've had an episode like first thing trying to get out of bed, but like Typically, I don't get out of bed too much in the night.
[00:21:43] Jill Brook: Okay, good. Good thing. So is there anything about POTS that you wish you had known much sooner?
[00:21:50] Hanna: A lot of things, but probably the biggest was like the electrolytes because I think for a long time, I had so many doctors tell me like, you just need to drink more water. I think you're just dehydrated. And I heard that a lot when I was in the early stages of, like, I don't feel good and I get dizzy when I stand up and they would just tell me you're dehydrated drink more water and learning recently with the naturopath, they're like, no, you need electrolytes in all your water to actually like keep it in your body. And that has made a big difference for me.
[00:22:27] Jill Brook: Are there any silver linings to having POTS?
[00:22:31] Hanna: It's taught me to be more of an advocate for myself, for sure. And Like, it took a lot of doctors giving me the run around for learning how to not tolerate that. And like, I've now gotten to a point where if I feel disrespected or dismissed by a medical professional, I feel comfortable standing up for myself and either asking for a new, new provider or recently I was admitted to the epilepsy monitoring unit because neurology wanted to confirm again that it wasn't seizures. But when I got there, the neurologist, the epilepsy specialist kind of came in while I was getting the electrodes glued to my head to tell me like, I don't really know why you're here.
Your last EEG, like really was very typical of fainting and it was just a whole thing that I ended up staying in the hospital only for a day instead of five, but like in that case, I also learned I can call the patient relations specialist and really talk to someone about how that wasn't okay.
And so I've mostly learned how to find providers that can empathize and listen and take me seriously. It's also taught me to listen and trust my body more as well.
[00:24:00] Jill Brook: Can you talk more about a patient relations specialist for people who don't know what that is or what they could do for you?
[00:24:08] Hanna: So like I had this pretty negative, frustrating experience at the hospital and my therapist actually helped me find the number for the patient relations specialist at this hospital whose job it is to take complaints or like concerns of patients and they Pretty much sat with me for a half an hour talking on the phone, and I told them everything that happened and how I was frustrated and who was involved and that they were going to pass it along to leadership at the hospital because they felt that that was something that they needed to know was something that happened.
And so they were just someone who was really helpful in listening to my concerns and hopefully helping make some change.
[00:25:01] Jill Brook: Right. We can hope. Are you up for a speed round where you just say the first thing that comes to your mind?
[00:25:07] Hanna: yes.
[00:25:08] Jill Brook: What's your favorite way to get salt?
[00:25:11] Hanna: Original Sun Chips with extra garlic salt.
[00:25:14] Jill Brook: What is the drink you find the most hydrating?
[00:25:17] Hanna: My favorite is watermelon propel.
[00:25:20] Jill Brook: People keep saying that. It does not sound... As good as it must be. I'll have to try it before I discount it.
[00:25:28] Hanna: I recommend it.
[00:25:29] Jill Brook: What is your favorite time of day and why?
[00:25:33] Hanna: Probably just sunset because as an artist I love taking pictures of nature and painting pretty things.
[00:25:41] Jill Brook: Where is your favorite place to spend time?
[00:25:44] Hanna: Ooh there's a park that I live really close by here in Portland and it's called Mount Tabor and it's my favorite.
[00:25:51] Jill Brook: How many doctors do you think you saw over the years for what turned out to be POTS?
[00:25:56] Hanna: I think at least 10, but that's just the ones I can remember in the last four or five years.
[00:26:03] Jill Brook: How many other POTS patients have you ever met face to face in the flesh?
[00:26:08] Hanna: Only one, but neither of us had a POTS diagnosis at the time.
[00:26:12] Jill Brook: What's some good advice you try to live by?
[00:26:15] Hanna: One is, and that's okay. Adding it to everything makes me feel better. Like, I didn't do my laundry today. And that's okay. And also, it can be both. So, acknowledging that two sometimes seemingly opposite things can be true at the same time.
[00:26:34] Jill Brook: Yeah, what is something small or inexpensive that brings you comfort or joy?
[00:26:41] Hanna: The way that I've started describing my brain fog to people around me. I just explain it as there's just one piece of wet spaghetti that is driving my brain and her name is Noodle and sometimes She struggles and sometimes she's half a noodle, but she's doing her best and it makes me laugh and it Brings me joy.
[00:27:08] Jill Brook: Nice. Who is somebody that you admire?
[00:27:11] Hanna: Frida Kahlo.
[00:27:12] Jill Brook: Ooh, the artist? Why?
[00:27:14] Hanna: Yes. She is just someone who went through unimaginable pain and suffering in her life but never gave up and processed a lot of it through art. And that's something I find really beautiful and inspiring.
[00:27:31] Jill Brook: Nice. Okay. What is the food you really like to eat?
[00:27:36] Hanna: Ooh, I have about four meals that I can cook well myself. But, my go to is probably pasta and veggie sausage with some broccoli, but because I need more protein in my diet, I've changed to, like, protein pasta that's made out of lentils.
[00:27:57] Jill Brook: Nice. What is something you're proud of?
[00:28:00] Hanna: Ooh back when my symptoms weren't as bad, I have completed four triathlons. And one of which was an Olympic distance, which is probably the one I'm the most proud of. And I've also climbed two mountains that were over 14, 000 feet tall. One of which I broke my ankle on the way down about a mile from the end and still finished it, hopping on one leg. So,
[00:28:28] Jill Brook: Oh my gosh. Okay, so what do you think about when you're doing an Olympic length triathlon?
[00:28:34] Hanna: ooh, that's a great question. So it's a swim, bike, and a run, and that one particularly, it was like a mile swim, 28 mile bike, and a 10k, and the swim, I may or may not have had a panic attack in the water but I still finished, and the whole thing, I actually, I finished about, I think second to last, but I finished it.
And I think something that has always stuck in my brain when I'm doing those is like usually a lot of music that gets stuck in my head on repeat, and just, it helps me find the strength within myself to keep going.
[00:29:20] Jill Brook: beautiful. What's the toughest thing about POTS?
[00:29:24] Hanna: Probably between the constant fatigue and that fainting can be really scary sometimes.
[00:29:31] Jill Brook: What's an activity you can enjoy even on your most POTS y days?
[00:29:36] Hanna: Ooh painting. My favorite is I sometimes paint watercolor in my bathtub, like I have one of those things that goes across the bathtub and I paint watercolors while I'm sitting in there, and something that has been life changing for me lately, because when I used to take hot baths, my heart rate would be like Super high and like freaking out, but it's been really hot here over the summer. So I tried taking cold baths and they are amazing and wonderful and helped me like Cool my body temperature when it feels like I am melted.
[00:30:13] Jill Brook: Nice. Okay, what is a gift that you would have sent to every POTS patient on earth if you had infinite funds?
[00:30:20] Hanna: Ooh Both an indestructible, dishwasher safe water bottle and A lifetime supply of their choice of electrolytes.
[00:30:31] Jill Brook: Smart.
[00:30:32] Hanna: Yes.
[00:30:34] Jill Brook: What is something you're grateful for?
[00:30:36] Hanna: My cats. I've had one for about nine years, almost. And the other, I just got a couple weeks ago. So, she's sweet.
[00:30:47] Jill Brook: Have you ever had to sit down or lie down in a weird place because of POTS, and if so, where was the weirdest?
[00:30:54] Hanna: Yes. Mostly, it's all been at work lately. It's been like, under random people's desks. And my, again, lovely co workers have Made it normal to just have conversations with me while I'm laying down under someone's desk. And I love that.
[00:31:12] Jill Brook: Oh, yay, understanding coworkers. Okay, I just have a couple more questions. What do you wish more people knew about POTS?
[00:31:20] Hanna: That it helps when loved ones do their own research too. I think for me sometimes it's both exhausting to have a chronic illness and then at the same time be explaining what it is to people all the time. And so it's been really cool for me that people in my life have, like, you know, done their own research to kind of figure out what POTS is when I tell them that that is something that's going on with me.
[00:31:50] Jill Brook: Yeah, yeah. If anybody out there listening is a loved one of a POTS patient and you want a really cheap but meaningful gift, this Google search would mean a lot to many people. Okay, last question. Is there anything you want to say to your fellow POTS patients who are listening that you haven't already said?
[00:32:09] Hanna: Never give up. I think it can be a long road to diagnosis and treatment, but it's very much worth it to figure out what's going on and to allow yourself to have all the feelings that come up along the way and you're gonna be okay. And this is your reminder to drink some water right now.
[00:32:30] Jill Brook: Actually, I have one last question. What takes more endurance, an Olympic length triathlon or waiting 15 years for a diagnosis?
[00:32:38] Hanna: Probably the 15 years for sure. Yeah,
[00:32:42] Jill Brook: All right, Hanna, well, thank you so much for sharing your story and your insights with us. We so appreciate it, and I know everybody listening is wishing you all the best going forward and hopes to run into you next time they're in a museum in Portland.
[00:32:56] Hanna: of course. Thank you so much.
[00:32:59] Jill Brook: Okay, listeners, I hope you enjoyed today's conversation. We'll be back again next week, but until then, thank you for listening. Remember you're not alone, and please join us again soon.
